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Fidissimus
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 1530
Location: Portland, OR.
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 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: To Knead or not to knead GF Bread - that is the question |
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| Mrsppmrxky wrote: | | When I have baked yeast breads GF and tried to rise and then knead and then rise, the bread became like a brick. Have you skipped this process on the loaf bread and the pizza bread, or did you do it exactly like the directions? Thanks in advance. |
I was making a lot of my own bread mostly in a bread machine. It was pretty dense and not exactly like "real" bread. So I was trying various brands hoping to get something a little more familiar. What I found was an interesting article in the instructions of the Sylvan Border Farm Bread Mix, which is made with yeast.
It states:
"A loaf of Sylvan Border Farm bread will always be nicer if it is not prepared in a bread machine. Bread machines were designed to knead the dough, and the purpose of kneading is to develop the gluten present in wheat flour. Since there is no gluten to develop, kneading is not necessary. Bread machines over mix gluten-free flours and the result is a coarser loaf of bread."
I then made their loaf of bread two ways, one in the bread machine and one without kneading it in the oven. (Because I'm difficult that way and hardly ever believe what I read...  ) But they were right! The oven one was far superior - light and fluffy as opposed to dense and sticky.
But I guess my question then is, what does it mean specifically to "develop" gluten? How does kneading accomplish that? And does that mean we should never knead any GF breads?
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Cheers!
Jenn
GF BD: Feb. 2001
Free of wheat, barley, rye, oats, dairy, eggs, almonds, pineapple and brewers yeast.
http://graindamaged.blogspot.com/ |
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The Edifying Conscience
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: To Knead or not to knead GF Bread - that is the question |
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| Fidissimus wrote: | | But I guess my question then is, what does it mean specifically to "develop" gluten? How does kneading accomplish that? And does that mean we should never knead any GF breads? |
To develop gluten you simply work the dough. Some gluten breads need the gluten devoloped, others don't. Biscuits for example don't need the gluten developed. If you knead or overwork biscuit dough the baked product will come out like hockey pucks.
Although I could be wrong, it is my understanding that we can't overwork gluten-free dough. I have only one GF recipe that I do take the time to briefly (only 3-4 turns) knead the dough. It's for GF Parkerhouse Rolls. I don't even know why I bother because 3-4 turns isn't enough to change the makeup of the dough. Next time, I'll have to make two batches and knead one a bit and the other none. I'll report back my findings.
Some bread makers offer a GF setting. I'm wondering if the GF setting reduces the kneading time. Anyone out there with a bread maker with a GF setting know if this is true or not?
TEC |
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ostrich
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 4145
Location: Nebraska
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: To Knead or not to knead GF Bread - that is the question |
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| Fidissimus wrote: | | But I guess my question then is, what does it mean specifically to "develop" gluten? How does kneading accomplish that? And does that mean we should never knead any GF breads? |
This is why you have to be careful when mixing normal pancake batter. If you over mix it more gluten is released into the batter, resulting in hard, dense pancakes. (Thank you Alton Brown! He talked about this in his pancake episode if you can catch it.)
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mrsppmrxky
Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 1469
Location: GF Kitchen
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the input. I look forward to your scientific research results. LOL
I was wondering if you just do the initial mixing............and not the second rising if it would be light and fluffy. (I don't have any problem with getting great results on the grandma's buns that were posted. (I sub. 1/2 cup quinoa flour for some of the rice flour) They are very light and airy......I had a birthday party Sat. with hot dog buns. (funny that adults would think that was such a treat. LOL)
If I leave the mixer on high for 4 minutes, it seems to make the gluten start to form in the dough and it does better.
I then put them in the prepared pans.........rise for 45 minutes - 1 hour and then bake.
I never touch the dough after it rises.
I wanted to try my old Gluten cinnamon roll recipe, but have not been up to the experiment............I didn't have the energy to have a failue.
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WheatFreePDX
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 91
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Hi TEC & Mrs. P!
I have the new Cuisinart breadmachine with the GF settings. You are correct, it does not "knock down" the dough after the intial rise. There is only one kneading cycle & it bakes immediately after the rise setting.
It was actually from this that I learned not to knead or work any GF dough after rising. I agree this technique works best for rise & texture.
Erica
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Diagnosed with celiac disease (bloodwork & biopsy). GF (again in my adult life) since March 2005. |
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Fidissimus
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 1530
Location: Portland, OR.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:18 am Post subject: |
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Oooo.... I went and checked out your Bread maker. It looks really nice. I love the idea that it has a gluten free setting! How do you like it? I think I could convince DH that I "need" a new bread maker!
Sorry I missed the pancake episode of AB!
_________________
Cheers!
Jenn
GF BD: Feb. 2001
Free of wheat, barley, rye, oats, dairy, eggs, almonds, pineapple and brewers yeast.
http://graindamaged.blogspot.com/ |
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WheatFreePDX
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 91
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Jenn!
I love my breadmaker. I use it twice a week; no kidding. I got mine at Bed, Bath & Beyond using their 20% off coupon so I got mine for $82.50. It comes with a recipe book that has 5 GF bread recipes. It was worth it for me!
Erica
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Diagnosed with celiac disease (bloodwork & biopsy). GF (again in my adult life) since March 2005. |
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SoIhaveAdisease
Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 174
Location: Central Alabama
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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WOW!
It's almost like a dream to find a machine that can handle gluten free!!!!!
(Too bad it costs so much- although it could be worth it, like the whisper mill....maybe)
Do the recipes it comes with taste like "real" food? Or is it coarse like alot of GF breads?
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ostrich
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 4145
Location: Nebraska
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| SoIhaveAdisease wrote: | | Do the recipes it comes with taste like "real" food? Or is it coarse like alot of GF breads? |
I think that'd take a small miracle. All the breads I've found/made seem to taste the same (not like normal bread).
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mrsppmrxky
Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 1469
Location: GF Kitchen
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| ostrich wrote: | | SoIhaveAdisease wrote: | | Do the recipes it comes with taste like "real" food? Or is it coarse like alot of GF breads? |
I think that'd take a small miracle. All the breads I've found/made seem to taste the same (not like normal bread). |
Have you tried the new bread recipe that was posted from the Living Without Magazine? I have found that it tastes really great!
I have had 2 loaves that didn't shrink at all. YEA! I found that when the bubble top reaches the pan edge, turn the oven on and start baking. It is really soft the first day. I plan on making some for the freezer and then we will see how it goes.
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Fidissimus
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 1530
Location: Portland, OR.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Is that the same recipe that was posted here recently?
My DH got me the Cuisinart bread maker for Mothers Day, but I haven't done too much baking with all the summer activities... I might be willing to suffer in a hot kitchen for a good loaf of bread though... 
_________________
Cheers!
Jenn
GF BD: Feb. 2001
Free of wheat, barley, rye, oats, dairy, eggs, almonds, pineapple and brewers yeast.
http://graindamaged.blogspot.com/ |
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mrsppmrxky
Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 1469
Location: GF Kitchen
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Fidissimus wrote: | Is that the same recipe that was posted here recently?
My DH got me the Cuisinart bread maker for Mothers Day, but I haven't done too much baking with all the summer activities... I might be willing to suffer in a hot kitchen for a good loaf of bread though... |
Yep, that's the one. Here is the link
http://www.celiacforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3040
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ostrich
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 4145
Location: Nebraska
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| mrsppmrxky wrote: | | Have you tried the new bread recipe that was posted from the Living Without Magazine? I have found that it tastes really great! |
You don't taste the garfava flour at all? I haven't had much luck with bean flour breads.
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Ostrich :>--O==={
I lie below, you float above
In the pretty white ships that I am dreaming of |
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mrsppmrxky
Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 1469
Location: GF Kitchen
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:08 am Post subject: |
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I really will have to go try another piece before I can say for sure. LOL........that brain fog is still with me in the mornings before I have had my coffee. LOL
You definitely smell the bean flour when you are mixing. Since I grind my own, I haven't noticed that 'metalic taste' that I find from all of the pre-mixed flour that I have bought. (I didn't know if that was because of the beans or the Xanthan they put in their flour mixes.)
I think that it tastes similar to whole wheat, but again let me retaste it with my coffee for breakfast.
edit: I just re-tasted it and if you have a strong adversion to beans, then you might pick up on it. I think that overall, it tastes very close to whole wheat.
Since this is the protein in the bread, you might be able to substitute the bean flour with TEFF flour. It has more protein than wheat. I think that it is mostly the starches in this recipe that give it it's fluffy texture.
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