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The Edifying Conscience
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 3000
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 Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: Booze |
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I was at a CSA sponsored lecture yesterday where the two speaking physicians commented that distilled alcohol and vinegar are not gluten free. Unfortunately, they were spreading this (mis)information to a group of 50-75 adults. CSA of Chicago and these physicians did a bang up job!  I'm looking forward to bombarding the physicians with way too much information on the safety of distilled vinegar/alcohol. Do any of you know of any articles that should be sent to them.
One of the physicians who has CD claimed to have a gluten reaction after having a margarita at a Mexican restaurant. [Couldn't possibly have been cross contamination reaction. ] He alleged that triple sec is the root of the problem. I googled and didn't find any info that gluten is included in triple sec. From what I've found it's normally made from orange peels but can also be orange flavored. I was hoping to find a definitive answer as to the gluten status of triple sec. So what know you all?
Thanks! |
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aklap
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 10972
Location: WI, USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, CSA is very strict in what they deem appropriate. Some people have reported to have a gluten reaction from gluten-based distilled alcohol.
Like any product, some brands may not be GF. I see a bartender with CD reporting Triple sec is not GF, but Grand Marnier is . To my knowlege GM is a brand of Triple sec... See comment way at the bottom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_sec
http://www.csaceliacs.org/DefofGlutenFree.php
| Quote: | gluten-free in processing
This term was developed in Europe to differentiate between naturally gluten-free and items that test gluten-free after processing. Such products meet the CODEX definition for gluten-free (200 ppm. or .03% of protein). Codex wheat starch and distilled wheat- or rye-based alcohol are examples of "rendered gluten-free in processing." |
http://www.csaceliacs.org/gluten_choices.php
| Quote: | Alcoholic Beverages
FOUNDATION STAGE:
Wine and brandies without preservatives and added dyes; potato vodka; most rums and tequila.
EXPANDING STAGE:
Distilled liquors known to be from wheat, barley or rye are categorized as “rendered gluten-free through processing.” If the product is from a gluten source, it does not conform to the diet of those who choose a zero tolerance level gluten-free diet.
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http://www.celiac.com/articles/184/1/American-Dietetic-Association-Revises-Its-Gluten-Free-Guidelines---Distilled-Vinegar-is-Safe-for-a-Gluten-Free-Diet/Page1.html
http://www.celiac.com/articles/328/1/Does-Distillation-Remove-All-Gluten/Page1.html
http://www.celiac.com/articles/330/1/Sprue-Nik-Press-on-Distillation/Page1.html
http://www.enabling.org/ia/celiac/exp/exp98-1.html
http://wheat.pw.usda.gov/ggpages/topics/Celiac.vs.grains.html
| Quote: | Alcohol derived from wheat
There has been concern expressed at times about products made from grain alcohol, when the alcohol might be derived from wheat. Because the toxic peptides (in fact all peptides) have low volatility, whereas alcohol produced by grain fermentation has a high volatility, properly distilled alcohol derived from wheat grain will contain no toxic peptides. Consequently, all vinegars made from a base of grain alcohol should be safe and this is true also for alcohol extracts as well, for example, alcoholic extracts of vanilla. In general, it appears that distilled liquors such as vodkas and whiskies should be safe, as well. Beer made from wheat, barley, or rye, as mentioned above, is a fermented, but not distilled, product and hence might have some toxic peptides in it. I suspect that beer has low toxicity, perhaps even none, but further scientific studies would need to be carried out to prove this. |
http://www.enabling.org/ia/celiac/ada.html
| Quote: | Vinegar
The concern in this country has been the possibility of gluten peptides surviving distillation and winding up in distilled vinegar when the source is a gluten-containing grain. Not only is this not possible, but wheat is seldom, if ever, used as a vinegar source. So gluten would not be found in distilled vinegar, which is the kind you will run into almost all of the time in this country. Rather than go into all the evidence again, we have included a reprint from Gluten-Free Living with this issue. But the vinegar issue continues to plague the American celiac community. Recently a reader contacted us saying she had heard some new things about vinegar and why it might cause problems for celiacs. The theory she heard went like this:
Since gluten is a protein, it is made up of amino acids that hang together in a kind of chain, almost like a necklace. It is the peculiar order of the amino acids that appears to cause problems for celiacs. When gluten is processed in some way, the chain breaks up into individual links called peptides. While one peptide (or several) may be safe, one or more of the peptides may be toxic. The test that can measure gluten proteins cannot measue the peptides and therefore cannot find them because they are broken down. But they would still be there and potentially toxic to celiacs.
This theory is neither correct nor up to date since wheat does not appear to be used for vinegar in this country. But if you are concerned, here's what you need to know.
Proteins are made up of 20 different amino acids that are linked together by peptide bonds to form what is called a polypeptide. They are like the beads of a necklace, where different amino acids correspond to different colored beads. The number of each type of amino acids in a protein, combined with their sequence in the chain, determines what the protein is.
Proteins are long polypeptide chains usually incorporating at least 50 amino acids, although some proteins have many hundreds of amino acids in their chains. Natural peptides are shorter chains that are frequently the result of breakage of a long protein chain into smaller pieces, which can be of varying lengths.
For example, if there are only two amino acids in the chain, it is called a dipeptide. Diepeptides are too small to be harmful to celiac patients. The smallest peptide that has been shown to be harmful has 12 amino acids linked in the polypeptide chain.
There are a number of chemical ways to break up the proteins into shorter chains or even into the individual amino acids that comprise the protein. Some food processing methods, hydrolyzation for example, do break proteins up into peptides. If the proteins came from a gluten-containing grain, some of the peptides could be toxic, as the above theory proposes.
When a protein like gluten is hydrolyzed (broken up), the degree of breakdown may vary. Although the polypeptide chains could be broken down to the constituent amino acids, which would be harmless, the process is seldom carried that far. If it were, the resulting ingredient might no longer have the properties the food processor desired. "Partial" hydrolysis might result in peptides large enough to be toxic. That's why celiacs are advised to avoid hydrolyzed wheat protein or other hydrolyzed ingredients for which the source is not stated. Some of the peptides could be toxic.
Since FDA regulations now require that processors state the source of hydrolyzed ingredients, which can be soy, corn or wheat, celiacs should be able to read the label and determine which hydrolyzed proteins to avoid and which would be safe. This was not the case when processors could simply declare hydrolyzed "vegetable" protein on the label, leaving the celiac in the dark as to the source of the ingredient. *
However, the theory described above about dangerous peptides would not apply to distilled vinegar. Distillation is a process that separates molecules using their different volatilities. Those that are highly volatile (turn readily to vapor when heated) go one way (into the distillate); those that are less volatile or not volatile at all will lag behind or stay with the starting mixture.
For example, table salt is not volatile. It will not turn to vapor if heated under distillation conditions. So you can't smell it. But you can smell alcohol, as you probably know if you've been near someone who has had too much to drink. That's because alcohol is highly volatile.
Gluten proteins and peptides (even amino acids) have so little volatility, they don't vaporize with the alcohol in distillation, and are left behind, as table salt would be, while the alcohol separates readily. This means toxic peptides would not be present in the distillate when pure grain alcohol is made. So even if a distilled vinegar was made from pure grain alcohol derived from wheat (if you were able to find some), it would still be gluten free. **
Distillation has been practiced for centuries. It is an easy process to understand and has withstood the test of time, if not the test of celiacs. Readers who prefer to continue to avoid distilled vinegar, which is almost always (if not always) made from something other than wheat, can comfortably do so,. But their individual reactions or choices have nothing to do with other celiacs. |
http://www.celiac.com/blogs/10/Alcohol-and-Celiac-Disease.html
| Quote: |
#13 ( Mo)
I am a celiac and was a bartender for 9 years. I think that it is important to stick to the 100% potato vodkas, rum and 100% agave tequilas for celiacs. Hard Cider, Sake and wine are all good options. Beware of mixed drinks (triple sec) is not your friend. If you enjoy margaritas ask for Grand Manier instead of triple sec. I hope this helps. There is nothing worse than a hangover on top of a bad reaction due to an allergy.Good luck!!!
#14 ( Dr Vikki Petersen)
My clinic specializes in treating patients with gluten intolerance and celiac. Distilled alcohols do not contain gluten. Beer is not distilled and therefore not okay unless it's one of the newer gluten-free varieties that recently came on the market. The fact that some celiacs don't respond well to certain liquors has more to do with alcohol itself, perhaps their liver function or the presence of infection in their small intestines. But it isn't due to the presence of gluten regardless of whether the alcohol is made from a grain. Hope this helps. |
Dr. Vikki Petersen: http://www.healthnowmedical.com/about/vikki.html
_________________
Al
“We cannot all do great things, but we can do small things with great love.” Mother Teresa
Last edited by aklap on Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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The Edifying Conscience
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 3000
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, Al! That's more information that I hoped to receive; I'm sure that's more information than the physicians would like to receive! I haven't reviewed all of the links yet, but will be sure to do so soon.
The bartender's info about triple sec was interestng. I appreciated the response by the physician. For our next support group we've ordered some rapid gluten tests. Among other things(BRM oats, fruity pebbles, a frozen Amy's dinner, etc.) I think I'll test some triple sec, some Stoli or Belvidere vodka and distilled vinegar. I'll be sure to tape the 'experiment' so there is proof. Hopefully the tests will reveal what I want it to reveal! |
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aklap
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 10972
Location: WI, USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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Your welcome! I figured you'd weed out what you didn't want. 
Yeah, I thought the bartender/Dr. comment was quite fitting
Please let us know how the testing goes, I'll be interested in that! I gotta ask...what do you hope it will show?
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Al
“We cannot all do great things, but we can do small things with great love.” Mother Teresa |
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The Edifying Conscience
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 3000
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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I of course want the distilled products to show that they fall in the GF category. Actually it would be nice if all of the products fell into that category.
As someone who wouldn't touch Fruity Pebbles with a 10-foot pole I'm interested in seeing how they test. There are lots of celiacs who eat them and I find it hard to believe that CC doesn't come into play in the plant. Same with the BRM oats...I find it hard to believe that BRM can guarantee that XXX number of growers can all provide a GF product.
Any other product suggestions. We'll have 10 strips, but one will be used for a gluten containing product and another for a GF product. So, we'll have 8 to 'play' with. Triple sec probably isn't necessary. |
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aklap
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 10972
Location: WI, USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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That's what I kinda figured
As you might expect the Fruity Pebbles might depending if you got a box that was early in the run after a NGF to GF switch over.
It will be interesting!! Good luck!
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Al
“We cannot all do great things, but we can do small things with great love.” Mother Teresa |
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The Edifying Conscience
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 3000
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| aklap wrote: | | As you might expect the Fruity Pebbles might depending if you got a box that was early in the run after a NGF to GF switch over. |
That's true and I didn't even consider that. I think I might ask for a few volunteers to bring in their personal stash of Fruity Pebbles. We can take some from each of the boxes, grind them together and then run the test. Same with the BRM. |
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ostrich
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 5105
Location: Nebraska
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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I'm really curious about the results of those tests. Please post them when you get them.
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nancw
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 1279
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW both distilled alcohol and vinegar bother me since my additional food sensitivities became evident. They have been eliminated in my diet along with pretty much anything made of any grain, rice and corn. I'm not sure how many others who are grain-free handle this - I need to ask around.
Perhaps the confusion/disagreement over proven GF vinegar and distilled spirits is more about a generally unrecognized (and more common than we think) increased sensitivity to these things that may go along with gluten sensitivity? Just a thought.
I'm curious to see how your food testing goes TEC!
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Nance
gluten, dairy, soy, rice, yeast and 99% grain-free |
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Jags
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| aklap wrote: |
Like any product, some brands may not be GF. I see a bartender with CD reporting Triple sec is not GF, but Grand Marnier is . To my knowlege GM is a brand of Triple sec... See comment way at the bottom.
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GM is a top shelf Triple Sec and is Cognac based, regular TS is not always a brandy derivative, and while I would not be worried about the spirit involved, it is only 15-40% of the whole product. So there could be an issue with the filler, I do know there is some malted products used for flavoring. So I would think there is at least some reason to investigate it a little. But Alcohol does not have to follow FDA labeling laws I think. Also remember the sour and other mixers involved are not spirit based at all.
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Big Jon |
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aklap
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 10972
Location: WI, USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Interesting...
Thanks Big Jon and welcome to the board!! Looking forward to hearing more from the trained chef!!
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Al
“We cannot all do great things, but we can do small things with great love.” Mother Teresa |
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Jags
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Malt syrup is also used alot in the mixology world as well.
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Big Jon |
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aklap
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
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Location: WI, USA
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aklap
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 10972
Location: WI, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: |
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DeKuyper's Triple Sec
| In an email dated 6/27/08 - John at DeKuyper wrote: | Dear Al,
Thanks for asking about a potential allergic reaction to gluten in our cordial products.
Our cordials are distilled spirits that are primarily made from a corn base. They may also occasionally contain small amounts of wheat or rye. While gluten can be found in these small grains, including rye, barley, oats, etc., the process of distillation generally excludes gluten in the finished product.
People with celiac disease may have a permanent intolerance to gluten. Beam Global Spirits and Wine does not advise legal age adults whether to drink or not to drink; this is a decision you may want to discuss with your physician if you have any questions. Your physician may be able to provide personalized advice about this issue, based on the ingredients and processes that go into making our cordials.
Thanks again for your inquiry about our products.
We like hearing from our consumers, so thanks again for contacting us. Have a great day.
John
DeKuyper® Customer Care Representative
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I interpret this to say it's GF.
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Al
“We cannot all do great things, but we can do small things with great love.” Mother Teresa |
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